Concentration Moon

Notes and Comments

Previous entry This Album Refs Global N&C Refs Songs Index Next entry

  To Album Refs
To Global Refs
How did it start?
Thousands of creeps
Killed in the park
From: (Brian Zavitz)
  It wasn't Kent State because that happened in 1970 or 1971, and WOIIFTM was recorded in 1967/8. There was another shooting previous to Kent State, and this is the one that Zappa refers to, but I can't remember the incident.
From: John Henley <>
  I don't think the song refers to an actual incident. Frank was carrying the hostility between hippies (or, in L.A., freaks) and the police to what was for him the logical end. It just so happened that within a couple of years, it started coming true.
  To Album Refs
To Global Refs
COP KILL A CREEP! pow pow pow
Tomorrow I get to do another
Frank Zappa...Creation
And the day after that...
And the day after that...
Also at the same time
I get a work with
Velvet Undeground
* which is as shitty group * Censored out on
* as Frank Zappa's group * the original vinyl
From: db832@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Phillip A. Freshour)
  I don't know that they *didn't* get along, but if it's true, it's quite possibly due to Frank's intolerance of substance abusers. Mr. Reed was once booed off the stage in Cleveland because he was too drunk to perform. Even though it happened 20 years ago, it's still a local legend in the Northeastern Ohio area.
From: (Mark A. Natola)
  I read once that Lou Reed had called Frank "An Untalented Asshole". On WOIIFTM, the comment about the Velvet Underground is being made by the recording engineer (whose name I can't think of), who happened to be working on both the Mother's and The Velvet's albums at the same time. Both the MOI and the VU were stablemates at MGM/Verve in those days, and if you look at the release numbers on the spine of the records, you will see that they are similar.
  The engineer on WOIIFTM is Gary Kellgren. Tom Wilson was the producer for the first couple of MOI albums and also produced the first VU album, I believe.
  As for Zappa vs. Reed, there is a long anti-Zappa diatribe from Reed sometime in the 60's quoted in the VU biography "Up-Tight." Apparently Zappa, in turn, made nasty comments about VU during some concerts from those days. Ironic that both Zappa and Reed were embraced as heroes by Vaclav Havel.
  From LP liners notes
  GARY KELLGREN (picture in badge on cut-out page), engineer for two months of basic sessions at MAYFAIR STUDIOS is the one doing all the creepy whispering.
From: John Henley <>
  "Also, at the same time, I get to work with the Velvet Underground, which is as shitty a group as Frank Zappa's group."
  Spoken by recording engineer Gary Kellgren, and no doubt reflecting his true personal opinion. ("Kellgren, who cordially despises Zappa's music..." from Walley's book, paraphrased from memory) Included by Frank as being suitably irreverent.
From: (Robert Garvey)
  I'm not sure of the origin of this animosity, but first became aware of it when leafing through a book of rock 'n roll quotes. There was one from Lou Reed about playing the theatre in London where Zappa had been pitched into the orchestra pit 1971 and how much pleasure he got thinking about that.
  Another good quote in that book was about Lou Reed. I can't remember the source, but that person said that it was about a decade between good Lou Reed songs.
From: John_Dessi <>
  Over the years I've seen lots of quotes from Lou Reed slagging off FZ in a big way, but I've never heard any negative stuff back from FZ about Lou Reed. In fact, in 1982 when he did his special dee-jay slot on Radio 1 (UK) he played 'All tomorrow's parties' from the first VU album, whatever that tells us.
From: (Alan Saul)
  From Miles' Visual Documentary:
  3-29 May (1966)
  Double bill opening for Andy Warhol's Exploding Plastic Inevitable with the Velvet Underground and Nico at The Trip, Los Angeles. The hometown crowd naturally cheered The Mothers and booed the Velvets whose sombre black New York outfits didn't fit in with the garish Californian Freaks. The Byrds, Jim Morrison (still at UCLA Film School at the time) Sonny & Cher and Mama Cass were all in the audience for the opening night. Lou Reed developed a seething hatred for Zappa: "He's probably the single most untalented person I've heard in my life. He's two-bit, pretentious, academic, and he can't play rock 'n' roll, because he's a loser. And that's why he dresses up funny. He's not happy with himself and I think he's right." [Reed] This is because Zappa would make fun of the Velvets as part of his stage rap... "These guys really suck!"
  It's hard to imagine how the Velvets and The Mothers could have shared the bill for the whole month without violence occurring. It was perhaps fortunate that the Sheriff's office closed down the club on the third day of the engagement. However, the Warhol gang and The Mothers played one more gig together:
  28-29 May
  Fillmore Auditorium, San Francisco. The opening audition band (who didn't get paid) was The Jefferson Airplane.
From: John_Dessi <>
  Apparently, if I remember correctly, FZ and Herb Cohen supposedly blocked the release of 'The Velvet Underground and Nico' until after 'Freak Out' came out, so that the latter would be forever remembered as the first 'weird' album to be released. Sounds totally preposterous doesn't it, but is there any truth in it?
From: (Alexander Shane Dickey)
  Actually, in "Up-Tight:The Velvet Underground Story" it all but says that. It definitely alludes to the fact that Lou was pissed that Verve was releasing "Freak Out" first. This could be Lou's side of the argument. As for Frank, I just think he thought the VU sucked.
From: Vladimir Sovetov <>
  It's interesting also to note that when FZ was poshumously inducted to Rock'n'Roll Hall of Fame ( Jan, 1995 ) it was Lou Reed who did the honors and said how much he missed Zappa's integrity and his firebrand politics. And even as cited by John_Dessi <> said
  "I respected Frank Zappa, and I know that he respected me" And Frank's daughter Moon in her turn started the acceptence speech by this words ( (John V. Scialli) transription ) "This is so nice. Thank you, Lou. I really appreciate that."
  BTW, on a BTB I disc UNMITIGATED AUDACITY you could hear Reed's name in a list of then big rock starts
10. Harry, You're a Beast (00:53)

You're phony on top
You're phony underneath
You lay in bed & grit your teeth
David . . .
Allan . . .
Iggy . . .
Lou . . .
don't come in me, in me
don't come in me, in me
don't come in me, in me
From: Cliff Heller <>
  Vlad, just one quick comment
  You devoted a lot of time to the FZ/Lou Reed controversy, but I don't think it's fair to end with this anecdote without including Gails commentary on the whole Hall of Fame thing. From her comments, and what I know about the industry, Lou and Moons on-stage comments were just show-business nicey-nicey between people that hate each other.
  The choice of Lou to induct Frank was a great insult to the Zappa family. Gail said, among other thing "Lou never had a nice thing to say about Frank".
  Also include that quite some time before the Hall of Fame induction Ahmet led audiences at Z shows in loud chants of "Fuck Lou Reed!" (At least he did this in New York, I can only presume he did so elsewhere - unless the fact that it was Reed's home town made it special).
  Unfortunately, I don't have the text of the Gail quotes, but I suspect they are available somewhere. Feel free to include any of these comments in upcoming revisions of this Notes & Comments.
  It seems like a lot of space to devote to the FZ/LR stuff, but this might be the best place to include it, if it isn't documented elsewhere.
  Thank you, Cliff, for a great suggestion. Here is it straight from our fabulous Dr. John.
  To Album Refs
To Global Refs
Threatened by US
From: "Kerry R. Field" <>
  I think back to the Vietnam war protests I experienced. Anytime the police or National Guard clubbed and arrested people they were handcuffed and dragged to a bus for transport to the police station for processing. What was always ironic to me is that it was usually a yellow school bus, The same vehicle that transported most of us to and from our formal education. I also believe FZ capitalized US to state that the American Way was threatened from within, but us from the US of A.
  To Album Refs
To Global Refs
Drag a few creeps
Away in a bus
From: (Eric Pepke)
  The other thing to remember is the difference between "freaks" and "hippies." It's a bit like the difference between "punk" and "new wave" was in the early eighties, or the difference between some soup kitchens for winos and a multimillion-dollar Homelessness Industry. Freaks were basically a bunch of dissatisfied reasonably young people, sometimes imaginative, sometimes angry, sometimes destructive, and sometimes stupid. Hippiedom was built supposedly on the foundation of freak culture but was really Big Business. When most of the album was recorded, the scales were still pointing toward freaks. When it was released, it was Hippiedom all the way.
From: (Sam &/or Karen Rouse)
  I remember reading in some FZ related material (maybe The Real FZ Book?) that it was a reference to the fact that after the "real" freak scene had started, it was promptly glommed onto by tourists (speaking metaphorically, i.e. folks that had found an exciting new trend to emulate).
  Getting back to the original thread - I think the songs in question are referring to "creeps" rather than "freaks" (e.g. "Cop kill a creep - pow pow pow"). I think this sort of makes sense, in that "freaks" seems to encompass more sociological ground than "creeps," the latter referring more to appearance than other matters - and "creeps" being a group that could be victimized on more superficial grounds by those not interested in looking further.

Previous entry This Album Refs Global N&C Refs Songs Index Next entry

SOVA NOSE Any proposal? I'd like to hear!
Provocation, compilation and design © Vladimir Sovetov, 1994-2004
You could download, copy and redistribute this material freely as long as you keep copyright notice intact and don't make any profite on it.